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so help people understand animism

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compared to let's say Pan psychism or

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compared to materialism or compared to

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idealism without getting too much into

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the philosophical kind of part of that

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but just at a really kind of quick level

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the people who are saying animism when

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they throw it in that same sentence with

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idealism and apparently you know what

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are they talking about okay yeah well

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again going back to what I was saying

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about spirits and stuff that was kind of

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an old I kind of like an outdated way of

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thinking about things it was implicitly

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loaded with assumptions about the people

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who were animists so suggesting that the

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people who are animists were kind of

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primitive and that their way of thinking

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was was useless so right from the very

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beginning anthropology is kind of like

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it's been interested in animism but

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again it's kind of bracketed out it's

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it's kind of ontological truth value if

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you can if you can talk about such a

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thing beliefs relative what happened and

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see see if you see if this is true or

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not because sometimes me coming as a

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total novice might might help but you

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got to correct me because it's totally

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wrong so the anthropologist walks into

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the forest of New Guinea and he goes and

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talks to the shaman and the shaman says

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that tree just talk to me and that rock

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is is also is wise in this way and the

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water is this and the guy's taking his

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notes he goes okay this guy's really

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kind of has this really weird belief

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system because he thinks all these

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things are alive and have this spiritual

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quality to them right so that's the is

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is that what originally they thought

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animism was from it yeah then they

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thought a was a belief system because

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they implicitly understood that again

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the Western materialist scientific

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ontology was the only one that's

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actually true the only one that's

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actually real so yeah eventually though

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through more and more ethnographic

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engagement with people so more and more

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anthropologists going out over the years

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and living with people and interact

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with them learning their life ways we

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begin to realize that animism isn't just

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a belief system the animism is actually

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a mode of engaging with the world so

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it's a way of living in the world it's

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not just about beliefs it's about

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practice and experience and

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participation in the world and this is

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now animism is often referred to as a

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kind of as a relational ontology so the

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foundational components of animism the

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foundational elements are there are to

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do with relationships between persons

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and we say that not all persons are

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human so in anthropology we talk about

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other than human persons as well so

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these could be rocks plants animals and

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all of the other kinds of spirits and

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gods and deities as well but the

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important thing is the situation

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the situating of societies within a

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network of relationships so this is

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where the this is where the ontology

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differs from materialist ontology zand

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you know all the other kinds of Western

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mainstream anthologies is that we're

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realizing through animism that we're

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embedded in this bigger network of

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interactions with different kinds of

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minds different kinds of intelligences

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and that they're the front these

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relationships are the fundamental kind

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of building blocks of reality and then

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add to that flood that with our

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understanding our gradual understanding

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of the paranormal and someone goes out

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in encounters spirits or our

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understanding through parapsychology of

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medium research or of other encounters

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with the paranormal that now eat away at

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the underlying assumption that was

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originally made that not only is it a

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belief system but it's an incorrect

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belief system so you're you're crushing

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the idea that it's a belief system it's

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not a belief system it's a total

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engagement with reality but then add to

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that that there is a reality to that

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reality and that my presuppositions

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about how the world works and the crazy

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nests of this spiritual realm and I'll

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begun to crumble with the the

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parapsychologists in the paranormal

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people right so I mean all these things

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are happening kind of that once in real

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time and having these different effects

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and forces on the whole process right

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yeah yeah definitely

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and then so we should add to that

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conversation then and I want you to pick

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this up because I think this is what

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throws people sometimes too and it's

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it's a lot to deconstruct is that

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animism is now being reintroduced into

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these conversations like with you and

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Gordon as an alternative to idealism as

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an alternative to materialism and I

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think we've just give given people an

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idea of why that conversation goes on

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but maybe we need to add to that a

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little bit in explain how those kind of

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are now put on

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oh yeah pants psychism is basically like

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animism and that's different than

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idealism and materialism II do have any

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thoughts in terms of helping people kind

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of understand that

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well yeah it's it's kind of like a murky

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territory I know that Gordon for example

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Gordon doesn't like the idea of Pam

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psychism and he's like you like talking

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about Dean things that Pam psychism is

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kind of like a backdoor materialism

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again at the end of the day it's a

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crutch yeah what do you think that's a

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Gordon's crash no no no I think I think

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it's a I think it's a crutch I think

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it's the you know it's the last bastion

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of materialism whole holdouts you know

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one foot on the dock one foot in the

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boat kind of thing mixing metaphors but

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yeah it's on the is it's on the way

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towards animism but it's not willing to

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go all the way and when we talk about

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Pam psychism for example we're talking

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about some kind of like a fundamental

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kind of consciousness or a fundamental

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awareness that isn't you know it's not

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consciousness as we understand it it's

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just it's the basis of awareness

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whereas when we're coming from anomie

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perspective that other consciousness has

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just as much agency and intention in the

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world as we do they just express

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themselves in them in different kinds of

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ways so the consciousness of a rock

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isn't necessarily just some kind of like

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a flat flat lines background

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consciousness but actually it possesses

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its own agency and intention in the same

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way that that we do but it expresses its

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agency and intention in the world in a

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very different way perhaps over like

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vast vast time scales or things like

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that okay yeah and this is fun because

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this is now an opportunity to take the

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conversation one step further because

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I'm listening to you and Gordon and all

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your cool thoughts on enemas and I'm

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thinking but guys you've missed the

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point in the same way it's on the way

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towards what again I mean it take these

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different wisdom traditions and I've

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always been interested in yoga and in

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the east and in particular the Vedanta

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non-dual kind of thing hey man all those

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people there saying sure it's spirits of

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hares parents they're spirits everywhere

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on the way towards what it's about

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transcending that spiritual reality and

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getting to what's next so it does seem

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to me to be somewhat of an arbitrary

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stopping point to say ah we've got it

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we've arrived it's animism you know it's

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like this discussion you're having about

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does animism sassoon idealism and it's

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like no of course not because idealism

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is really saying that it's all it's

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closer to that that non-dual vedantic

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kind of it all goes into one there the

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wave in the ocean are just separate only

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because we imagined them to be separate

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so I've teed it up enough there let's

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start that discussion yeah well I agree

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with you because I don't think I'm well

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I don't think the animism is is the

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place to stop necessarily but again like

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you're saying is with one step closer to

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whatever the ultimate thing is

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but I think it's a particularly useful

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way of thinking about the world given

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that we have for the past 150 years

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being literally destroying our our

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planet it gives us kind of like a

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framework to rebuild our relationship

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with live kind of like the ground of our

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being here do you see what I mean it's

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thinking in terms of relationships shows

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that we are part of this wider network

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of things whether it turns out to be an

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an idealist universe or multiverse or

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whether animism teaches us that we have